Pagan News and Views Since 1998
Hi, Welcome to the Global Wicca Summit's first event of the week in Second Life.
[14:00] Scarlen: :D
[14:01] Belladonna Laveau: Thank you for coming.
[14:01] Belladonna Laveau: The Global Wicca Summit is a historic event that is being brought to you through the cooperation of the three biggest houses of Wicca, and through the involvement of many Wiccan Leaders across the world. You can read more about it here. http://thedailyspell.com/GWS
[14:01] LolaStardustLolaStardust applauds
[14:01] Belladonna Laveau: I am so glad you could all attend.
[14:01] Elphabala HoxleyElphabala Hoxley applauds
[14:02] SkyfaeSkyfae cheers
[14:02] Belladonna Laveau: This discussion is a pre-Parliament of Worlds Religions event, designed to prepare Selena Fox, Don Lewis, and myself for a discussion panel on Wicca as a Global Religion.
[14:03] Belladonna Laveau: The information used here will help us plan for a more cooperative future together
[14:03] firefly Bluebird: woot
[14:03] LolaStardust: our opinion will be heard!!
[14:03] Belladonna Laveau: Everyone is welcome, but this discussion is specifically for Wiccans to express their needs and opinions.
[14:03] Neelam Hienrichs: :-)
[14:04] ℳʘʘℕ: Roar!!!
[14:04] Belladonna Laveau: Let us ask the Gods to join us today and throughout this week that we may seek to understand each other's points of view, so that we might work to create a kinder gentler future, where we can all work together in cooperation to make the world a better place regardless of our theological differences.
[14:04] Belladonna Laveau: We ask the Gods to open our hearts and ears to hear beyond the limitation of our words. that we may understand the intention behind them. We ask the Gods to help us find more compassion and understanding of our path and the paths of those we walk with, as we come together to share our thoughts and beliefs. So mote it be.
[14:04] MadHouseWitch: ☽♀☾So Mote It Be☽♂☾
[14:04] Skyfae: So Mote it Be
[14:04] Elphabala Hoxley: so mote it be
[14:05] LolaStardust: so mote it be
[14:05] Cassandee Meter: ☽♀☾So Mote It Be☽♂☾
[14:05] ℳʘʘℕ: ☽☉☾Տʘ /\/\ʘϮ∈ iϮ ß∈☽☉☾
[14:05] Sagan Skye: So Mote it Be
[14:05] Grimhilda: So mote it be
[14:05] Iduna: so mote it be
[14:05] Sheidra: So Mote It Be - Go Peace ~
[14:05] LolaStardustLolaStardust waves to the new people that just walked in
[14:05] Nicholas Kingsley: So mote it be
[14:05] firefly Bluebird: so mote it be
[14:05] LunaLovelee: so mote it be
[14:06] Belladonna Laveau: Today we will be discussing Witch Wars and working together. Selena Fox, Don Lewis, Oberon Zell and I have come together with many other leaders to unify our efforts as a religion.
[14:06] Belladonna Laveau: I feel this is an appropriate topic to start the discussions with, as Witch Wars and differences of opinions have prevented us from working together to tackle the real problems that we face as a religion today.
[14:06] Belladonna Laveau: Coming together to help save the planet, and to create a place for all of us to thrive in happiness is paramount in my opinion. We cannot afford to fight amongst ourselves, as we have far too many enemies beyond our community. The world, our very Goddess, is under attack.
[14:07] LolaStardust: nods
[14:07] Sheidra: nods
[14:07] MadHouseWitch: sort of that "charity begins at home" idea
[14:07] Belladonna Laveau: How do you feel about witchwars and working together as a community? have your experiences this with others in the community? Do you have and suggestions for how we can deal with these issues when they arise.
[14:07] ℳʘʘℕ: agreed
[14:07] Cassandee MeterCassandee Meter agrees and nods, indeed
[14:08] MadHouseWitch: if we are always infighting, then we have spent our reserves by the time the outside forces attack
[14:08] LolaStardust: agrees
[14:09] LolaStardust: there are some very petty disagreements that turn into wars between us
[14:09] Belladonna Laveau: this is true, it takes away from the real work. How can we rise above this?
[14:09] LolaStardust: we need to practice what we preach
[14:09] Elphabala Hoxley: this used to happen a lot where i live, most of us just stopped feeding into it
[14:09] Neelam Hienrichs: managing the ego
[14:10] LolaStardust: and maybe remember that each person is on their own path
[14:10] LunaLovelee: when u say witch wars do u mean witches judging other witches because one might come from another path
[14:10] Scarlen: Focusing the will on it's real purpose.
[14:10] LolaStardust: and if their path leads them to say negative things towards us, then let it be
[14:10] Sheidra: teaching the young ones properly
[14:10] firefly Bluebird: i only have heard of fights but have not seen it yet. where i live if there are wiccans or anyone on our paths here they remain in hiding or they dont live in my town
[14:10] Dusty Dionne: What parts do you believe we preach, and what parts of that do you think we need to practice?
[14:10] Scarlen: its*
[14:10] LunaLovelee: sorry im a slow typer im disabled
[14:10] Cassandee Meter: I think there is guidance in the Wiccan laws, Law #14, You must not put stumbling blocks in the way of those who do not follow the path of the wicca, and I mean to say if this law applies to those who are not of similar faiths, how much more does it apply to those who share many of the same beliefs, but differ only in small ways.
[14:10] Skyfae: I think the leaders I have delt with personally do much to combat this - but essentially the seed truth for me is no one has to be wrong when you feel you are right.
[14:11] Belladonna Laveau: no worries Luna, this is why we are doing it in text, so all voices can be heard and recorded
[14:11] LolaStardust: i practice non judgement
[14:11] LolaStardust: i preach non judgement
[14:11] Dusty DionneDusty Dionne nods at Lola
[14:11] SilverMoonWisdom: Welcome Maggie
[14:11] Skyfae: However it is the fear of the witch wars and those that happened in Washington in the 80-90s that left a bad taste for Wicca, and left many people I know unwilling to practice with a group.
[14:12] Belladonna Laveau: I like non-judgement, and tolerance
[14:12] Cassandee Meter: "Stumbling blocks" as minor as they might be, by naysaying or putting down those who believe differently then ones own beliefs is an important aspect of the diversity that is essential to the health and well being of any population
[14:12] Dusty Dionne: Witch Wars destroyed the Atlanta Pagan Community in the 80's and 90's and 00's and it has never really recovered.
[14:12] Neelam Hienrichs: conflicts happen everywhere but some groups have a strong leadership or a leader that keeps people low
[14:12] LolaStardust: this makes me sad
[14:12] firefly Bluebird: i was unaware of this
[14:12] Dusty Dionne: Powerful witches that couldnt work together.
[14:12] LunaLovelee: im a christian witch and i know its been hard for others to grasp how that is possible so ive gotten judgements from both sides
[14:12] Belladonna Laveau: To me, we should approach from the standpoint of learning, Why do others think the way they think. But often humans feel threatened when someone disagrees with them.
[14:12] Cassandee Meter: missed the phrase *cintrary to*
[14:12] Sheidra: Teach them teamwork
[14:12] Skyfae: *nods* I see the effort put in to recover Washington, so I'm proud to be a part of that.
[14:12] MadHouseWitch: witch wars destroy communities in general
[14:13] MadHouseWitch: How many small ones do you think never made it off the ground due to differences?
[14:13] LolaStardust: i have witnessed first hand "witch wars" and it almost made me turn away from my path
[14:13] Belladonna Laveau: I have had quite a few battles with my brothers and sisters of the craft. They can get brutal. I've been arrested, jailed, and tried. I've had my kids questioned. I've had family services try to put me and my family in the system. Many times people have attacked me as a leader. I have watched many leaders just stop being in community, so they didn't have to deal with the drama. Why do you think people do this?
[14:13] Neelam Hienrichs: when you come to Wicca you notice that it is often chosen by people in search of their own path out of the standard religions, so it's just normal that people become a big ego-centered, we are all looking for ourselves and our own way
[14:13] Dusty Dionne: Bella was lambasted on the first public post she ever made to the Pagan Community forums. It was about unity. They tore her apart over it. Can you imagine if she had decided to say "$%#@ it"?
[14:13] Cassandee Meter: maybe there should be more effort on uniting different sects at "leadership conference every year, or quarter or something in order to foster teamwork and share support
[14:14] LolaStardust: but i had to remind myself what the Goddess says "Let naught stop you or turn you aside"
[14:14] Neelam Hienrichs: Dusty, I would have said "f..i.."
[14:14] Skyfae: I think that publications (like Panegyria) do much to include the voices of solitary practitioners or practitioners that cross traditions - I think encouraging these voices to be heard can help bridge the gap that some still feel for recovering witch wars
[14:15] ℳʘʘℕ: they fear what they do not understand
[14:15] Belladonna Laveau: So, what I'm hearing is, we need to teach our leaders how to work together through leadership conferences and workshops.
[14:15] Sheidra: YEs
[14:15] Neelam Hienrichs: yes
[14:15] Elphabala Hoxley: yes
[14:15] Damaras: yes I agree with that
[14:15] Neelam Hienrichs: and then each individual has to work on his/herself
[14:15] LolaStardust: agree
[14:15] MadHouseWitch: "those who show up, make the rules" keeps me going. Which was one thing gleaned from an event I did that I was not all that impressed with otherwise (good things still came of it)
[14:15] Dusty Dionne: I litereally JUST submitted this years ATC Leadership Workshops to PantheaCon for consideration
[14:16] Cassandee Meter: and that leadership might pass the tolerance and guidance in teamworking to their groups.
[14:16] Damaras: Perhaps get some of the people you mentioned earlier to help with this
[14:16] Skyfae: I also think that many Wiccan's may avoid any kind of organization with other's of their faith due to recovering from Abrahamic church experiences.
[14:16] Belladonna Laveau: Moon is correct, People fear what they do not understand. But, I also think people get hurt when they think others look down on them for their personal gnosis.
[14:16] MadHouseWitch: THEN when those that don't show up complain, they don't really have much to back them, because they didn't make the effort
[14:16] MadHouseWitch: I agree Skyfae
[14:16] ℳʘʘℕ: nods yes
[14:16] Cassandee Meter: Maybe if at all the festivals and conferences that are already in operation, a leadership convocation could be made of the leaders of any group that wihes to attend, and at that convocation there would be some team building efforts between and among the various groups
[14:17] Damaras: I think that is a good idea Cassandee
[14:17] LolaStardust: nods
[14:17] Belladonna Laveau: I agree with Madhouse and that keeps me going too
[14:17] MadHouseWitch: I have seen people not come to events locally because someone BLEW out a candle, and they didn't agree with that, so it really goes small scale to large scale
[14:17] LolaStardust: petty things like i said earlier
[14:17] Damaras: work with the leaders where they are at....at conventions that are already in existenece
[14:17] LolaStardust: then they turn into big things
[14:17] Belladonna Laveau: Orion Foxwood told me that I need to teach leadership workshops, so we have put it on the docket this year for my travels
[14:18] MadHouseWitch: yes
[14:18] Cassandee Meter: I think the negativity almost always arises when some feel tht others are not respecting them, or that they are being left out, so I would think respect inclusion is a key
[14:18] Dusty Dionne: I agree, Cassandee.
[14:18] Damaras: maybe talk with COG and other organizations
[14:18] Sheidra: I have seen that first hand
[14:18] Nicholas Kingsley: I agree, Respectful inclusion is a very powerful thing.
[14:18] Belladonna Laveau: So, I am hearing that speaking with respect for each person as a representative of God and Goddess would help resolve this issue
[14:18] Elphabala Hoxley: yes i agree, respect
[14:18] LolaStardust: respect is a big thing
[14:19] Sheidra: it is also earned not forced though
[14:19] Damaras: yes, respect and tolerance
[14:19] Dusty Dionne: I watched a woman wage war against Bella and myself because Bella didnt honor the sacredness (in her opinion) of the Candle Bella allowed her to put on our Main Ritual Altar.
[14:19] MadHouseWitch: but we see that with the "Council of American Witches" it only lasted a YEAR or so and POOF gone, but there is still a legacy there..... THEY TRIED to be inclusive and still got flak for it
[14:19] Cassandee Meter: =D
[14:19] Skyfae: *nods* I can agree with that.
[14:19] Dusty Dionne: Literal War Waging
[14:19] Roz: respect is the foundation
[14:19] LolaStardust: that is something i struggle with for myself..i sometimes fear people dont respect me cuz im very "happy go lucky" and they dont take me seriously
[14:19] Dusty Dionne: The United States US Witches Council by Kay Berry?
[14:19] Belladonna Laveau: Respect is so hard for many of us, because we weren't raised respectfully. Respect is one of those things that if you don't have it, you don't know it. So, we need to teach respect and model it.
[14:19] Dusty Dionne: I have much to say about that subject
[14:19] Damaras: yes, Bella
[14:20] MadHouseWitch: The old one, in the 70's not the new one LOL
[14:20] Cassandee Meter: IT is going to take leaders with thick skin and tenacious goal pursuit to make something like hearding cats work well
[14:20] Dusty Dionne: The old one was great.
[14:20] LolaStardust: herding cats..lmao
[14:20] Cassandee Meter: We need meta-physical border collies
[14:20] firefly Bluebird: when i think of all the issues i have had in general in life the issue i get back to is information and communication. to many people who stumble in the dark with no real direction think that they understand it all. the sad thing is that if they didnt have to try to make sense of a world where most info was either hidden or not there maybe the wars might be on the lower end. we cant stop all wars but what was the hardest thing for me to get was any real communication till i got to sl then here.
[14:20] LolaStardust: cassandee that is so true
[14:20] MadHouseWitch: LOL
[14:20] Skyfae: Hearding cats - so accurate, (with all loving respect)
[14:21] SilverMoonWisdom: Grins*
[14:21] MadHouseWitch: but... then won't people stay in "their boxes" which while SOME like that idea, great things come from cross polination!
[14:21] Scarlen: So many issues in the world are caused by bad communication skills.
[14:21] Dusty Dionne: The old Witches Council was only supposed to last long enough to hammer out some rules of conduct, and then the point was for it to disband.
[14:21] Belladonna Laveau: You guys may not know it, but Pete coined the phrase Leading Wiccans is like herding cats.
[14:21] Skyfae: So... metaphyisical boarder collies... I like this idea - is there already a working between our main religious leaders?
[14:21] SilverMoonWisdom: Welcome Fiona.
[14:21] LolaStardust: thats awesome
[14:21] Belladonna Laveau: He also said, getting money from them is like milking geese, but people don't repeat that. LOL
[14:22] Cassandee MeterCassandee Meter channelled Pete! lol
[14:22] firefly Bluebird: lols pete was so right lols
[14:22] Skyfae: IE is there already a spell up and running that includes the respect, prosperity and best, highest good of all those touched by the work?
[14:22] Themathou Storm Bringer: hello
[14:22] FionaFei: Hello
[14:22] firefly Bluebird: hi
[14:22] Cassandee Meter: Hi Themathou
[14:22] Belladonna Laveau: hello and welcome
[14:22] Sheidra: hello Themathou
[14:22] MadHouseWitch: I think there is something to having things be a LITTLE less autonomous, but we all know what happens when "Witch Queens" and "Witch Kings" pop up...
[14:22] Nicholas Kingsley: Well met :)
[14:22] Skyfae: maintenance and building of such a spell by our leaders could do much to create a common vibration / understanding
[14:23] MadHouseWitch: it has to be leader among leaders in a way
[14:23] LolaStardust: too many "chiefs"
[14:23] Belladonna Laveau: what happens when "Witch Queens and Kings" pop up?
[14:23] Sheidra: for sure
[14:23] LolaStardust: battle of egos
[14:23] Sheidra: They try to take over
[14:23] firefly Bluebird: a royal edict to run naked in the streets popup :)
[14:23] Cassandee Meter: Right, a leaader among leaders must know how to work with people who are used to being an authoority of their own, and not find themselves just trying to assert dominance
[14:23] aditaxd: hola
[14:24] MadHouseWitch: they tend to get laughed right off the throne
[14:24] Sheidra: chaos happens
[14:24] Damaras: Well, it is ok if they are your own personal queen and king
[14:24] Belladonna Laveau: In Wicca, we have to earn our rank by our works, and not by what we call ourselves
[14:24] MadHouseWitch: others go "I didn't vote them in" "Who died and made you King?"
[14:24] Sheidra: YES I agree
[14:24] Cassandee Meter: so all the leaders must feel that their individual authority is not being subverted by the process, but rather enhanced and shared
[14:24] Skyfae: people will tend to reoirnet themselves eventually but I think harm is done when it happens.
[14:25] Belladonna Laveau: There are plenty of people who just put Lady or Lord in front of their name without earning a degree, so our people make you prove it.
[14:25] Elphabala Hoxley: yes that happens a lot here as well
[14:25] Damaras: We all love Bella and Dusty...what if we made them king and queen?
[14:25] MadHouseWitch: problem is that some take the ego too far, they do some great works and then think "I know what is best for EVERYONE now!"
[14:25] firefly Bluebird: id second that
[14:25] Damaras: not saying ww should....just pointing out that we would like it but others may not
[14:25] Sheidra: I gotmine by doing 3rd degree
[14:25] Cassandee Meter: right!
[14:26] Belladonna Laveau: Technically Dusty and I are Witch Kings and Queens by traditional standards.
[14:26] Skyfae: Well there is the cut - who is king and who is queen? Who oversees the kings and queens?
[14:26] MadHouseWitch: I was going to say technically
[14:26] MadHouseWitch: I was meaning when like Lady Sheeba and Alex Sanders did it back in the day LOL
[14:26] Belladonna Laveau: A Witch Queen is one who has hived off at least three covens.
[14:26] Cassandee Meter: I thik there are natural leaders in Wiccan, and bella and dusty are definately among them, but there are many others equally worthy of that level of leadership too
[14:26] Belladonna Laveau: or King
[14:27] firefly Bluebird: i agree cassandee
[14:27] Damaras: ah...so perhaps the witch queens and kings should get togtehter
[14:27] Skyfae: *nods* but the idea of an over-seer someone in charge - get's very complicated in our society it seems
[14:27] Sheidra: nods
[14:27] firefly Bluebird: and then send the communitcation of what is agreed down the ladder to ther rest of us
[14:27] Damaras: yes, skyfae, so we need to do this on many levels
[14:27] ℳʘʘℕ: oh yes
[14:27] Damaras: those up at the top, the ones in the middle and each person individually
[14:28] Cassandee Meter: I think there could be a way to create a rotation of authority, and by drawing lots or something very random, the majoy players among the leaders could each earn a time of leadership, and the rotation of the authority would keep everyones shirt on and skin in the game...
[14:28] Damaras: we all have capacity to become witch queens or kings. And until we do that we need to help where we are. In the capacity we have at the moment
[14:28] aipekt: hi
[14:29] Damaras: Hi Aipekt
[14:29] Belladonna Laveau: that's what they tried in Covenant of the Goddess. How do you think that worked?
[14:29] Cassandee Meter: hi aipekt
[14:29] Skyfae: I don't know if having any one in 'charge' would work with Wicca - like a Wiccan Pope... or is that what we want?
[14:29] MadHouseWitch: How very ADF of you Cassandee (Druid group that appoints leaders by vote each year)
[14:29] Elphabala Hoxley: i don't think that would go over well
[14:29] Roz: not in wicca
[14:30] Damaras: well, COG has some real problems. They all think they are correct. However, they do try...but they leave people out
[14:30] Skyfae: HAving a Wiccan Pope for lack of better term is not one I would like to see - but I do like the greater transparency I am seeing in our leaders.
[14:30] MadHouseWitch: it sort of smacks in the face of being autonomous groups, having a Pope
[14:30] firefly Bluebird: well as for me i havent ever really seen this covenant in practice myself so i cant tell you
[14:30] Belladonna Laveau: So legally, the ATC has the same legal status as the Vatican.
[14:30] Scarlen: I honestly just feel like there are teachers and students, and everyone is able to become both of these in their lifetime, to any degree.
[14:30] ℳʘʘℕ: in my experiences I have found the people that do not leave room for growth or learning claim they know it all....they have failed, we need to be consistent as best we can.
[14:30] MadHouseWitch: (But I know a few Pagan Popes.... *snerk*)
[14:30] Belladonna Laveau: I agree with Moon
[14:31] Skyfae: Legally yes - @Bella - but I see that more as the rights and protections and responsibilities of a spiritual house / church and the education of circles than policy enforcement.
[14:31] Dusty Dionne: I was going to say: In America it's about paper work and leg work. We have institutions that lead their field in the eyes of the government simply because of their lobbying work and paperwork. Lady Liberty League for example
[14:31] Cassandee Meter: well, som how agendas need to be set, adn meetings arranged and like those types of organization are the things that keep a meeting productive and on message, and without some organization there is conspicuous opportunity for chaos to reign,but the question is i suppose how much organization and who will organize it
[14:31] firefly Bluebird: there are areas where most of this isnt known. thats why i had to revert to books or internet and hope what they found is correct
[14:32] Cassandee Meter: I wish there was a Wiccan lobby with as much power and directive influence as some of these other lobbying groups, but again, this is america...
[14:32] firefly Bluebird: we have the atc
[14:32] firefly Bluebird: :)
[14:33] Belladonna Laveau: To some degree their is a pay to play factor is Wicca. Meaning, you play by our rules, or your don't play with us. What do you think about that practice?
[14:33] Damaras: yes, firefly, it is hard for people to find out about the craft...and some groups are very secretive, and it is easy to feel left out as a new practioner. And there are some who think that is a very good thing and others who do not
[14:33] Belladonna Laveau: The ATC can and would Lobby if we received support through funding to hire lobbyists
[14:33] Damaras: I don't like the pay to play factor....it has put me off of some groups totally
[14:34] Scarlen: Agreed, Damaras.
[14:35] Damaras: I like ATC and the seminary for making it possible for any to begin...whether they keep it up is up to them. Ardantane teachers do the same thing
[14:35] MadHouseWitch: but think of all the strides that HAVE been made, yes still some groups are very secret, but there is PROGRESS there too
[14:35] Dusty Dionne: To which I reply with the part of PEtes saying that no one wants to say
[14:35] Damaras: I have met Selena Fox and I think she is open to many people
[14:36] Scarlen: Overall, I just feel things are made to be more complicated than they need to be. Often Simplicity is key.
[14:36] Belladonna Laveau: pay to play meaning, you have to pay by following the rules, or you don't get to play, meaning you can't be a part of it if you don't play by the rules.
[14:36] Damaras: so there are groups that do that. And that is who I think have the capacity to get together and begin
[14:36] Damaras: and each of us can begin to act with tolerance and respect to those we come in contact with daily
[14:37] Belladonna Laveau: Thank you Skyfae, we need your talents inhouse. :)
[14:37] Sheidra: BEtter implemented
[14:37] Cassandee Meter: Play by our rules or go play by yourself...makes sense to me in terms of setting the background rules of engagement, maybe not the most inclusive way to direct a group of people. but there has to be some boundary that defines the title of "wicca" in such a way that it is not something else entirely
[14:38] Damaras: And we do have rules...the new book of the laws...that lays out governance
[14:38] Cassandee Meter: yes
[14:39] Belladonna Laveau: It's the way Wiccan groups work now, even when they work together. You have to know and follow the rules and protocol, or they won't work with you.
[14:39] Damaras: and I agree with Scarlan things need to be just simple
[14:39] Sheidra: nods
[14:39] Damaras: that is sad Bella
[14:39] Belladonna Laveau: This happens to me even today. Groups will or won't work with me based on my following protocol and Wiccan Law. Some are more open than others.
[14:39] Scarlen: Thank you, Damaras. :)
[14:40] Dusty Dionne: Oberon Zell says "Dont want non cant have none" and that means that if you dont like the rules we play by, then you dont have to have any participation in it. THAT I think is a huge difference between paganism and other religions. Our Dogma says you cant have any if you dont want any, and encourages you to go elsewhere to find your happiness.
[14:40] MadHouseWitch: sometimes it isn't even WICCAN laws that have to be followed but rather regular ones, that people THINK they can get away with IN Wiccan circles
[14:40] Cassandee Meter: I like the laws as a way to set the boundary, like if these laws govern your behavior then you are included in our ways, and if you are not in agreement with the wiccan laws then you are simply something else, still respected, just nott the same
[14:40] Belladonna Laveau: without some rules you have chaos.
yes, Madhouse I agree with that
[14:41] Cassandee Meter: it isnt like the wiccan laws are not open to a greaat degree of personal interpretation...
[14:41] Belladonna Laveau: Wiccan religious institutions like the ATC have worked hard to gain the same legal status as other recognized religions. The law requires we have rules. Its what makes us identifiable as a group.
[14:41] MadHouseWitch: lording things over others, or treating your pagan group as your personal dating pool (indiscriminately)@ Mad, that's one of the things that will help you find the exit door at theATC <3 [14:42] MadHouseWitch: and YOU do have to have group identity beyond "On Wednesday's we wear black".... [14:42] Damaras: yes Madhouse or thinking it is ok to act out in front of children sorry, that is a touchy subject for me. HOw we disregard our children No I get it Damaras I REALLY do [14:43] Damaras: rather how some groups disregard the children [14:44] Belladonna Laveau: So, in this last 15 minutes, let's recap what solutions we have come up with to help us resolve Witch Wars and learn to work together.
we could have a talk about children in ritual spaces and fill the time too
[14:44] MadHouseWitch: GO SKYFAE taking NOTES
Solutions: Learn to lead with open hearts and minds
[14:46] ℳʘʘℕ: that was very well put Skyfae
[14:46] MadHouseWitch: respect each individual as the deity they are (or STRIVE your best to)
[14:47] Skyfae: I like Bluebird's point as well - clear expectations help people
[14:47] MadHouseWitch: Skyfae wins all the points!
[14:47] firefly Bluebird: darn i want some of the points lols
[14:47] Skyfae: Also writing all the articles circle, solitary or paisely witch-venger
We all win all the points too ;)
[14:47] firefly Bluebird: :)
[14:47] SkyfaeSkyfae gives some points to Bluebird
[14:47] firefly Bluebird: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*Yayyyyyyy!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
[14:47] Damaras: It is ok if others do not agree with you on some things....however, there needs to be common points that we all agree on
[14:47] Belladonna Laveau: we need to teach and model respect, relative truth, tolerance, and a value for individualness
[14:47] ℳʘʘℕ: yaaaay
[14:47] Cassandee Meter: when i find that striving getting the best of me Madhouse, I try to remind myslef that the wounds this person may carry are not something I can see or understand, so I may find them toxic, but I do not hate them for carrying an abssessing wound
yes Lady Bella
[14:48] MadHouseWitch: There is that "Be the Change you wish to see in the world" again
Yes Madhouse, that's true. We all have to start this within ourselves, and model this behavior, so that others can follow the example set.
[14:49] MadHouseWitch: Do what YOU can, to be the BEST YOU, that you can be for yourself AND others (but feel free to be selfish with that point)
lol Madhouse, that is true
[14:49] Belladonna Laveau: So that you know. The leaders that I mentioned have not started a "council" but we do work together when it comes to bigger issues.
[14:49] MadHouseWitch: Divine selfishness is a great thing sometimes
I am happy to hear that Bella
[14:50] Skyfae: oh LOOK TRANSPARANCY
[14:50] Skyfae: oh that's so on the list
[14:50] Belladonna Laveau: We are all friends, and I love and respect each of them. They are great role models for me.
[14:50] Cassandee Meter: yes
[14:51] Belladonna Laveau: Transparency is important. Agreed. You have to know what your leaders are doing, in order to trust them.
[14:51] Nicholas Kingsley: Here here!
[14:51] Belladonna Laveau: but often the people starting witch wars aren't leaders.
[14:51] Belladonna Laveau: They are often the newest members of our community
[14:52] LolaStardust: i also think some people are just negative nancys!!
[14:52] Cassandee Meter: well when there are conflicts within the wicca, do the parties appeal to a higher authority for arbitration of the dispute?
[14:52] Damaras: so their leaders need to counsel them
[14:52] Belladonna Laveau: Who don't understand our ways, and get caught up in painful situations that make them want to be solitary
[14:52] LolaStardust: no matter what is going on they always have to be sour pusses
[14:52] Belladonna Laveau: who is the higher authority, Cassandee
[14:52] firefly Bluebird: ok so my when my parents devorced when i was a kid, i tried to tell my dad i didnt want to live with my mother and that i didnt like her. my father told me that i had to stay with my mom that she needed me. he also said this ," princess you dont have to like your mother but you will respect her and do what she says, because in the end you still love her. " at the age of 12 i didnt understand this but i do now . its not alwasy what i want but what i need or what other people need. in order to lead we must be allowed to be lead . and also if we are to respect the wicca or want to be respected we cant just jump up when there is issues and leave we need to stay respect our leaders because as much as they need us we need them too. it cant be easy to have the world look at you all the time without others who share in what is important
what is important
[14:53] Neelam Hienrichs: I don't see Wicca as a church
[14:53] Neelam Hienrichs: it's a religion that strongly rely on personal responsibility
[14:53] Roz: I agree it is more a way of life to me
[14:53] Skyfae: point Bluebird
[14:53] LolaStardust: it is recognized as a religion
[14:53] LolaStardust: but i see your points
[14:53] Cassandee Meter: that is what i am wondering, i mean, if there was a way to arbitrate a dispute, that would be it...an authority
[14:53] Neelam Hienrichs: it can be a religion or a faith but not a highly organised one
[14:54] Neelam Hienrichs: exactly, but which authority if we don't have one?
[14:54] Belladonna Laveau: if both parties recognize an authority, but that's not how we resolve issues in Wicca
[14:54] ℳʘʘℕ: some people wont accept that its recognized as a religion
[14:54] Belladonna Laveau: We don't blame others.
We look within and figure out what we did to create the situation, we take responsibility for it, and then we fix it.
[14:55] firefly Bluebird: id say if we dont accept it as a religion then why should we expect others
[14:55] Belladonna Laveau: When that approach is taken, we do not need a higher authority, unless a law of the land was boken.
or if we are not able to do that we are not wicca...
[14:56] firefly Bluebird: in christianity ther are so many denominations are they not christians
[14:56] Neelam Hienrichs: I see it as a religion but we have no central authority and that's great but it also calls to more responsibilty when you don't have an ultimate leader that tells you what to do and what not to do
[14:56] Cassandee Meter: personal responsibility
[14:56] MadHouseWitch: Some of this mentality is that most of us live in an area that says Religion = Churches (or "church like" structures) and those OUTSIDE that norm are minor players not to be taken seriously
[14:56] Damaras: That is what I love about Wicca we all are personally responsible for our part
[14:57] Neelam HienrichsNeelam Hienrichs nods
[14:57] Neelam Hienrichs: it makes you grow up
Take care of your own side of the street
[14:57] Belladonna Laveau: Thank you all for your participation in this discussion. The next discussion is right after this one with Madhouse talking about Wicca V/S witchcraft.
[14:57] Skyfae: Thank you for taking time to prepare for the World Religion Parliment and that the other leaders are talking to the population.