Pagan News and Views Since 1998
This is the transcript for the Online Chat on Sacred Cauldron, SecondLife.com. The topic of conversation is "Wicca v/s Witchcraft". Let by Danielle "Madhouse" Pope.
[14:59] Gale Mantichare: thank you very much.
[14:59] LolaStardustLolaStardust waves
[14:59] ℳʘʘℕ: Greetings Madhouse
[14:59] Belladonna Laveau: Hi Madhouse
[15:00] Cassandee Meter: HI MadHouse!
[15:00] Grimhilda: Hello Madhouse
[15:00] firefly Bluebird: hi
[15:00] Grimhilda: Merry meet
[15:00] ScarlenScarlen waves.
[15:00] DamarasDamaras smiles at Madhouse
[15:00] Sheidra: hi
[15:00] MadHouseWitch: Hello, and Merry Meet
I'm MadHouseWitch, I am a second year student here at the Woolston-Steen Theological Seminary. I am also the Devotionals Coordinator for Sacred Cauldron. and I am a dedicant to Children Of The Crossroads in Spokane, Wa.
[15:00] MadHouseWitch: Today we are talking about Wicca Vs Witchcraft., I know there are some pretty strong opinions on this topic and it is not my goal to try and play "sides" against one another. But rather to have an open and civil discussion about the distinctions (if any) and your opinion on everyones feelings on this topic. It is my hope that we can better understand the why's and how's of the opinions offered today.
[15:01] MadHouseWitch: I do have my opinions on this topic but I want to save them for when we get to general discussions, and ask questions as topics come up
[15:01] MadHouseWitch: This can be a rather loaded question, and I find that the lines blur rather easily and quickly.
[15:02] MadHouseWitch: Do you feel there is a difference in Wicca Vs Witchcraft?
If you do, what do you feel the differences ARE?
[15:02] Sheidra: I feel the craft does not necessarily mean the spiritual side like Wicca
[15:03] LolaStardust: I feel Wicca is a religion and Witchcraft is a practice
[15:03] Scarlen: Wicca is a religion, where as Witchcraft is not.
[15:03] Cassandee Meter: well, for myself, I hav ethis notion that Wicca is one path to witchcraft, and that there are many other equally valid way to practice witchcraft, but not that those are wiccan
[15:03] Scarlen: Exactly, Lola. :P
[15:03] Damaras: to me wicca is more organized witchcraft with emphasis on personal responsibility
[15:04] MadHouseWitch: How do you define Wicca?
[15:04] QueenAthenaDruid: For me, I have always felt that Wicca is the religion of which I am a part of Witchcraft is the magic that I create.
[15:04] ℳʘʘℕ: In Wicca for me is honoring Nature
[15:04] QueenAthenaDruid: There should have been an "and" between "of" and "Witchcraft".
[15:04] Damaras: Wicca is a religion that is witchcraft organized
[15:04] Cassandee Meter: Wicca is a nature based fertility style religious or spiritual practice with personal responsibility and working for balance as basic tenants
[15:05] ℳʘʘℕ: taking care of Mother Earth
[15:05] Roz: I find that Wicca is the "polite" term for bing a witch really
[15:05] LolaStardust: wicca is what i believe in
[15:05] Damaras: yeah, what Cassandee said
[15:05] MadHouseWitch: Then how do you define Witchcraft?
[15:05] Damaras: using your will to create your reality
[15:06] Cassandee Meter: Witchcraft is the act of creation that makes metaphysical changes manifest on the physical realm.
[15:06] QueenAthenaDruid: I define Witchcraft as the belief in magical skills and magical abilities.
[15:06] MadHouseWitch: POP QUIZ TIME eveyone!
[15:06] Cassandee Meter: lol
[15:07] Cassandee Meter: are there L$ payouts for the answers?
[15:07] firefly Bluebird: lols
[15:07] SilverMoonWisdom: chuckles
[15:07] QueenAthenaDruid: lol
[15:07] Damaras: lol
[15:07] firefly Bluebird: only at the dances hun
[15:08] Roz: lol
[15:08] MadHouseWitch: What are your practices that are Wiccan in nature?
[15:08] LolaStardust: but then u get the whole "whats the difference between being Wiccan and a Witch?"
[15:08] MadHouseWitch: as opposed to what you would call "Witchcraft" only
[15:09] Sheidra: (((Pardon me time to go to work.. ty)))
[15:09] LolaStardust: tc sheidra
[15:09] Scarlen: I think Wicca is more strict in its practice.
[15:09] Damaras: blessed be Sheidra
[15:09] Roz: more structured maybe
[15:09] firefly Bluebird: when i think of wicca its the community and the life i life. like taking care of my self to achieve wholeness with myself and the divine. and when i think of witchcraft i think of the craft movie ... which i say still rocks :) but more of what others see of us. i think of the wizard of oz for instance
[15:10] ℳʘʘℕ: Blesshings Sheidra
[15:10] Belladonna Laveau: I see witchcraft as a more encompassing term where Wicca is a part of witchcraft. Wicca is my belief system, Witchcraft is what I do.
[15:10] firefly Bluebird: however the craft of a witch is also part of the life too
[15:10] Belladonna Laveau: there are many ways to practice witchcraft, Wicca is one of those ways.
[15:10] Cassandee Meter: When I am practicing wicca it is the spiritual connected ness of all things that I am focused on, when i am plying witchcraft i am exerting my own power on that connectedness to bring about a certain goal...
[15:10] MadHouseWitch: MY opinion is that there are a lot of misconceptions out there floating around which lead to broad assumptions
[15:10] firefly Bluebird: bingo mad
[15:10] Damaras: we have words for casting the circle that are similiar id not the exact way, we talk about personal responsibility, we learn the laws, we practice tolerance
[15:10] LolaStardust: you can be a witch but not Wiccan
[15:10] Belladonna Laveau: Madhouse knows.
[15:11] LolaStardust: but i believe all Wiccans are witches
[15:11] Damaras: yes, lola, I look at wicca as a more formal path
[15:11] Damaras: there are all kinds of pagan paths out there, wicca is one of them
[15:12] Neelam Hienrichs: witchcraft always existed in many traditions worldwide, Wicca is a relatively new path and it should always stick to Rede
[15:12] LolaStardust: yes i know Witches who dont identify as Wiccan because of the Rede, they do not follow it
[15:12] Neelam Hienrichs: many traditional witches in different countries see Wicca as "fluffy"
[15:13] firefly Bluebird: you hear of a solitary witch but not a solitary wiccan. and i have heard of that word neelam
[15:13] LolaStardust: nods
[15:13] LolaStardust: fluffy bunnies!!
[15:13] MadHouseWitch: this is why it is important to know your roots IMO
[15:13] firefly Bluebird: or term i mean
[15:13] LolaStardust: so true Mad
[15:13] Neelam Hienrichs: fluffy bunnies bite hard!
[15:13] ℳʘʘℕ: ▶ ▷ ℓ¤ℓ ㋡ ◁◀
[15:14] MadHouseWitch: What value does Wicca offer to you?
[15:14] ℳʘʘℕ: i know Pagan witches that dont associate with wicca
[15:15] LolaStardust: It offers me a sense of peace
[15:15] Neelam Hienrichs: witches who don't identify in Wicca are often coming from older traditions and have been witches for generations, while many modern Wiccan don't have such a background or are very urban
[15:15] LolaStardust: a sense of belonging
[15:15] ℳʘʘℕ: it taught me how to stop and listen, relate to nature
[15:15] MadHouseWitch: I've also heard of "non Witch Wiccans" but.......
[15:15] Themathou Storm Bringer: I think both beliefs are interesting. One being primarily a religion and th the other a practice
[15:15] Neelam Hienrichs: ah yes, non Witch Wiccans... it can be
[15:16] Neelam Hienrichs: why not?
[15:16] Cassandee Meter: I feel that wicca offers more structure and connectedness to other practitioners then I would think of having without it as a practice, i think the laws and the shared ritual and practices and meetings are important aspects of wicca that are not necessarily present in witchcraft
[15:16] MadHouseWitch: CAN be but can it? is the act of making a circle not magic itslef?
[15:16] ℳʘʘℕ: well i look at this way, many religions branched off christianity
[15:16] Neelam Hienrichs: I see your point MadHouse
[15:17] firefly Bluebird: in my life wicca and the path i walk has been enriching and has taught me to take myself more seriously and to take care ov my needs too. not just wave a wand and ... nope not going to put in a nother movie lols
[15:17] Neelam Hienrichs: I guess that many people still feel a stigma attached to witchcraft
[15:17] Neelam Hienrichs: it's putting boundaries
[15:17] LolaStardust: i find when i tell my conservative parents "im Wiccan" they accept that more then when i say "im a witch"
[15:17] Neelam HienrichsNeelam Hienrichs nods
[15:17] Cassandee Meter: If I was to identify as a non witch wiccan I would think i would be indicating that I take a hand off approach to changes the world I see around me, and that I am just in the flow enjoying the ride that nature is provideing on their own...I am not rrying to impose my will upon it...
[15:17] Neelam Hienrichs: without knowing LOL
[15:18] ℳʘʘℕ: exactly Lola
[15:18] ℳʘʘℕ: ooo scarey witch hunt, its all over tv
[15:18] Grimhilda: Because Witchcraft is ancient . There so many different types, there are Egyptian witches, asian witches and Europe has it's different witches depend on which country you come from. Each one with there own special Witchcraft, that are not Wicca but still witchcraft.
[15:18] firefly Bluebird: and with the salem witch trials i can understand. no one wants that anymore . i had to promise to my catholic parents that when they found out that i wasnt going to sumon demons or play with the devil... to which i say since i dont do any of that then i have no issues agreeing to that lols
[15:18] joselle Silvershade: Hello everyone!
[15:19] Cassandee Meter: Yes Lola that is how i have expressed my new educational pth to my parents as well..
[15:19] firefly Bluebird: hi joselle
[15:19] ℳʘʘℕ: Greetings Joselle
[15:19] LolaStardust: Hi Joselle!!
[15:19] - Laura -: For me, Being a witch isnt something I chose. Its who I am, Its in my blood. Everything wiccan seems to make sense to me, And is part of what I do naturaly without really trying.
[15:19] MadHouseWitch: Hello Joselle
[15:19] Neelam Hienrichs: there is also another side IMO that is Wicca necessarily took practices and deities from other traditions and put them together, some don't like it, they feel robbed
[15:19] LolaStardust: when i joined a coven i realized i was basically 'getting organized" in my Craft
[15:19] QueenAthenaDruid: I have an atheist aunt who told my mother that I needed to be re-baptised so the demons would leave my body when she found I was Wiccan. My mother just laughed and I educated my aunt on what Wicca was.
[15:19] firefly Bluebird: me too however i thing all can seek it too
[15:19] ℳʘʘℕ: and thats another one, being called a devil worshipper, when wicca is the most beautiful and gentle religion
[15:20] Persona: If you're going to discuss witchcraft, has anyone mentioned the "S" word?
[15:20] Roz: sadly we do get confused with the satanic by outsiders
[15:20] LolaStardust: and accepting the word "religion" attatched to my craft was hard at first
[15:20] firefly Bluebird: yes persona
[15:20] Cassandee Meter: when people ask me if I am a devil worshiper i tell them that I dont recognize any devil in my pantheon, but that some of them do have horns
[15:20] MadHouseWitch: Good point Lola, what ABOUT religion?
[15:20] QueenAthenaDruid: Roz, that is exactly what my aunt thought. She thought I was a Satanist until I informed her what Wicca was and wasn't.
[15:20] firefly Bluebird: all the time infact one of my close friends couldnt be my friend because i chose satan over his god in his words. not mine
[15:21] Neelam Hienrichs: Calling Wicca a religion is not bad
[15:21] ℳʘʘℕ: or call it a ritual instead of candy coating it by naming it something easier for others to take
[15:21] MadHouseWitch: is Wicca accepted as a religion? Is Witchcraft accepted as a religon? WHY might that be important to note?
[15:21] Neelam Hienrichs: it gives some status
[15:21] LolaStardust: Wicca is recognized as a religon but being accepted as one? hmmmm
[15:21] firefly Bluebird: to be considered seriously in the united states it needs to be considered as such i think but to me it is more than that
[15:21] LolaStardust: i think that is why we are having these discussions
[15:21] ℳʘʘℕ: right Lola
[15:22] Cassandee Meter: Religion has tax free staus, and protection under the constitution, at least theoretically
[15:22] LolaStardust: to show the world there are so many of us Wiccans and we are here, we are near, get used to us!!
[15:22] Belladonna Laveau: Wicca is accepted as a religion, because you can turn in your holy days to your employer and legally request them off.
[15:22] MadHouseWitch: What value does Wicca offer the world? What value does Wicca offer to you?
[15:22] Roz: when we come together as we are now we form a community of shared beliefs as any religion does
[15:22] ℳʘʘℕ: right :)
[15:22] firefly Bluebird: amen lola lols
[15:22] MadHouseWitch: leads into that question!
[15:22] Neelam Hienrichs: Wicca can be accepted as a religion, but Witchcraft in all its different forms is not exactly a religion, because if you meet witches around the world you will see that they still belong to other religions, like Christian Witches or Muslim Witches
[15:22] Belladonna Laveau: Witchcraft isn't a religion in my opinion. It's a practice.
[15:22] joselle Silvershade: I can relate to being a Witch as not really necessarily being a choice, as it feels that way sometimes for me too. The lines between where my Witchcraft begins and my being a Wiccan ends is not really existent, in my practice. I have heard a lot of folks who might not be as familiar with the ins and outs of Wicca as they would think they are, who say they are also Witches, which is fine -- but then go on to say Wicca is Witchcraft "lite" or some other (silly) thing. To me, the two things go hand in hand. Wicca is the "belief system" and Witchcraft the "practice".
[15:22] LolaStardust: ah bella..my coven sister cant do that at her job
[15:23] MadHouseWitch: is it a "world religion"?
[15:23] LolaStardust: becuz its owned by Christians
[15:23] LolaStardust: i would think Wicca is a world religion since it was started over in Europe originally
[15:23] joselle Silvershade: Wicca can be found all over the world, even if in very small numbers, but it is growing. Therefore I would posit that it is indeed a world religion, if we are using a very simple definition of the phrase. :)
[15:23] MadHouseWitch: I also know it is in Australia too
[15:24] Belladonna Laveau: She could sue them. I'm sure she doesn't want to, but legally she could.
[15:24] MadHouseWitch: we are all over, but yet still a very minor voice in the grand scheme
[15:24] LolaStardust: nods Bella
[15:24] Neelam Hienrichs: there are Wiccans in India, too and they are persecuted
[15:24] LolaStardust: ive told her that
[15:24] Persona: Are forms started in other parts of the world also not wicca?
[15:24] Neelam Hienrichs: which is absolutely silly
[15:24] joselle Silvershade: Yes and there have even been Wiccans in Saudi Arabia.
[15:24] Neelam Hienrichs: yes
[15:24] Belladonna Laveau: Just because we have rights doesn't mean we feel safe to pursue them
[15:24] firefly Bluebird: well thats because mad we have tried to stay silent for so long
[15:25] LolaStardust: so true Bella
[15:25] joselle Silvershade: I won't mention the person I know by name who lived there for a time but he held strong to the Goddess the entire time, and worshipped in secret.
[15:25] LolaStardust: and that needs to change
[15:25] Cassandee Meter: I think that I sense that Wicca has to find a way for its influence and perspective to be heard in this country, MORE! The earth really needs Wiccans right now.
[15:25] MadHouseWitch: and we change it by participating in events like this and supporting those groups that have already shown some strides
[15:25] Neelam Hienrichs: good Wiccans, please
[15:25] joselle Silvershade: As to being a very minor voice in the grand scheme of things -- I believe we underestimate the power we as Wiccans have, even in the small numbers we are. :)
[15:26] Dusty Dionne: Wicca keeps the balance, and we are for sure out of balance, Cass
[15:26] - Laura -: Wiccan gives value to me as a person, As it makes sense of how I see things, And how I live. It reasures me that ive got things right.
[15:26] joselle Silvershade: We just have to be willing to get out and do the work!
[15:26] Persona: It would seem to me that Hinduism bears a resemblance to wicca.
[15:26] Neelam Hienrichs: being or calling ownself "Wiccan" doesn't make you a good person
[15:26] joselle Silvershade: And of course, organize.
[15:26] Cassandee Meter: So while we are having this resurgance of authoritarian christian dominance the earth is burning and gasping for air, and water, and detoxification
[15:26] Neelam Hienrichs: yes, Hinduism has much in common with Wicca, just don't tell them
[15:26] Neelam Hienrichs: it's all a matter of names and terms
[15:26] Belladonna Laveau: good and bad are christian concepts
[15:27] Neelam Hienrichs: I think they are universal
[15:27] Belladonna Laveau: what's good for you isn't necessarily good for me
[15:27] joselle Silvershade: In the Correllian Tradition we like to say, it's all a matter of semantics! :)
[15:27] firefly Bluebird: i dont want to make it like we have to go door to door because that is anoying at best and would put use with others who do the same wont mention religions like that but we have to find the line between silence and being heard
[15:27] Neelam Hienrichs: semantics! yes!
[15:28] Cassandee Meter: right good and bad are judgements and semantic in nature, there are lots of different polarities that might better address differences
[15:28] Belladonna Laveau: to say "Good Wiccan" denotes judgement though, that's why I shy away from it. Who get's to decide who is good or bad?
[15:28] Neelam Hienrichs: sadly I wasn't very lucky with RL Wiccan groups and I knew on my skin was bad is
[15:28] MadHouseWitch: How many of you here consider yourselves "Wiccan Leaders" (great or small) as opposed to "Pagan Leaders"?
[15:28] joselle Silvershade: What the Correllian Tradition often encourages people to do is something I believe Pete Pathfinder also said -- to get out there and begin doing things, and letting people get to know WHO you are, as a person, before getting to know WHAT your belief system is.
[15:28] firefly Bluebird: that is hard to decide bella
[15:28] MadHouseWitch: Joselle I love that sentiment
[15:29] Themathou Storm Bringer: That is true Belladonna, differnt belief effect practices all around the world
[15:29] Belladonna Laveau: Yes Joselle, that was one of Pete's favorites.
[15:29] joselle Silvershade: I consider myself to be a Wiccan Leader. I am Wiccan first.
[15:29] Belladonna Laveau: I am a Wiccan Leader
[15:29] - Laura -: Good is nourishing, Bad is destructive.
[15:29] Cassandee Meter: I would say that I am a Wiccan, and that I am here as an example but not in any other sense a "LEader"
[15:29] Belladonna Laveau: but decay nourishes
[15:29] Cassandee Meter: right
[15:29] Neelam Hienrichs: I consider myself a person first of all
[15:29] Belladonna Laveau: destruction and creation is the same energy
[15:30] firefly Bluebird: its the balance of both
[15:30] firefly Bluebird: :)
[15:30] LolaStardust: i am a Wiccan Leader
[15:30] Neelam Hienrichs: my being Wiccan will follow the person, never the opposite
[15:30] LolaStardust: and proud of it!!
[15:30] Nicholas Kingsley: Huzzah!
[15:30] firefly Bluebird: amen again lola lols
[15:30] LolaStardust: but i am also always a student of it as well
[15:30] joselle Silvershade: And I feel that Pete's words can be used when we are trying to get out there and mobilize ourselves toward the betterment of Gaia, our living Mother Earth. There are so many people and places and organizations working toward bettering this planet, we just need to find the "in"... and then get moving.
[15:30] LolaStardust: always learning
[15:30] joselle Silvershade: Huzzah Lola! :) I do love learning also, it's great.
[15:30] firefly Bluebird: im a servant and friend and a wiccan and whatever is needed of me
[15:31] MadHouseWitch: so to the leaders, what is your role in Wicca?
[15:31] ℳʘʘℕ: always learning, yes
[15:31] LolaStardust: To guide, to teach
[15:31] Cassandee Meter: negative and positive are similar and yet if you look at how they work in polarity, you see for instance that electrons flow from a place of negative charge to one of positive charge and realize that here is movement associated with how the two opposites aare arranged, good and bad do not lend themselves to this kinetic energy
[15:31] Themathou Storm Bringer: yes Belladonna different beliefs effect the way people practice all over the world
[15:31] Neelam Hienrichs: I'm not a Wiccan Leader :-)
[15:31] LolaStardust: to Lead by example, as i always say
[15:32] LolaStardust: but i also have an obligation of sorts to always be open to learning from those i teach as well
[15:32] LolaStardust: i guess not an obligaton
[15:32] firefly Bluebird: a burning desire right lola lols
[15:32] LolaStardust: yes
[15:32] Neelam Hienrichs: lol
[15:32] LolaStardust: burning desire
[15:32] Neelam Hienrichs: that's great
[15:32] MadHouseWitch: Do any of you have leadership in something that had a legal status? (does your group have legal status, do you WANT it?)
[15:32] LolaStardust: great teachers learn from their students
[15:32] MadHouseWitch: YES
[15:33] MadHouseWitch: learning should be somewhat symbiotic IMO
[15:33] MadHouseWitch: albeit a lopsided symbiotic at times LOL
[15:33] Neelam Hienrichs: leadership is a vocation
[15:33] Belladonna Laveau: The ATC has legal status
[15:33] LolaStardust: well as you know Mad , our group is still deciding on whether we want to have a legal status or not
[15:33] MadHouseWitch: YEP LOL
[15:34] Neelam Hienrichs: and being leaders mean serving
[15:34] Neelam Hienrichs: others
[15:34] firefly Bluebird: if i was in a postion like that then i would seek for it only for the purpose of being the servent my would be fallowers need out of their leader but in all fairness i would rather just let the river take me. and we are in chat and hellos who ever was talking
[15:34] joselle Silvershade: My role is to live my life in the service of Gaia, my communities, and the greater community of humanity in whatever way the Goddess sees fit to work Her will through me. To teach; to learn; to guide, encourage, and help others see they, too, are worthy of all they can ever wish for, and that they too can help change the world... even if it's one recycle bin at a time.
[15:34] joselle Silvershade: The Correllian Nativist Tradition has legal status, and the Universal Temple of Gaia is also legally recognized.
[15:34] ℳʘʘℕ: well said Joselle, my feelings as well
[15:35] joselle Silvershade: Thank you <3 :) [15:35] MadHouseWitch: So, if we were talking about Wicca vs Witchcraft can you think of WHY legal status is important? [15:35] firefly Bluebird: hello clint [15:35] Cassandee Meter: to protect practicioners from persecution [15:36] MadHouseWitch: in either case of both cases.... and maybe WHY some would choose to have them be "lumped together" in a way? [15:36] joselle Silvershade: It's as important as LGBT folks having the legal right to get married. It grants rights and privileges to us as organizations.
[15:36] firefly Bluebird: to give other faiths more reason not to demonize us
[15:36] MadHouseWitch: I agree Cassandee
[15:36] Cassandee Meter: yeah it chaps my ass when people call things "witchhunt" when they are not toalking about persecution to the death for literally nothing other then peoples fears
[15:36] joselle Silvershade: It allows our clergy members to tend to our members in hospitals and prisons.
[15:36] ℳʘʘℕ: yes Casandee
[15:36] joselle Silvershade: It allows us to offer prayers in Town Hall meetings
[15:37] Belladonna Laveau: legal status protects you
[15:37] MadHouseWitch: if Witchcraft is PART of your religion it is important to protect it, even if it isn't the whole cut of cloth
[15:37] Neelam HienrichsNeelam Hienrichs nods
[15:37] firefly Bluebird: i agree
[15:37] joselle Silvershade: I totally agree MHW
I totally agree MHW
[15:38] MadHouseWitch: Some of this public eye stuff really helps, and some things sort of hinder right?
[15:38] Neelam Hienrichs: so it is also important that Wicca is seen as religion
[15:39] MadHouseWitch: Thinks of the "Witchy Aesthetic" While I LOVE it... I can see some as troubling in some cases
[15:39] firefly Bluebird: it can hinder to but getting recognized and protection does mean that we have to put our necks out there or the foot in the door
[15:39] Cassandee Meter: yes, as a practice of the protected status, it needs protection and perhaps it needs redemption from the slag heap of words whoose meanings have been deliberately villified
[15:39] MadHouseWitch: but seeing that "Oh I guess that Witch next door isn't so bad, her prayer was really pretty" is GOOD right?
[15:40] MadHouseWitch: I agree Firefly!
[15:40] Neelam Hienrichs: if Wicca is not a religion, can a Wiccan belong to another religion?
[15:41] LolaStardust: Well Wicca is a religion
[15:41] Neelam Hienrichs: Christian Wiccan perhaps?
[15:41] Neelam Hienrichs: I've heard that
[15:41] Persona: Society expects definite core beliefs from a religion.
[15:41] Neelam Hienrichs: yes, Lola, I agree
[15:41] LolaStardust: there was someone here that just said they were a christian wiccan
[15:41] MadHouseWitch: Generally it is seen that Wicca IS a religion,
[15:41] firefly Bluebird: i dont want others to be like om g look at the witch over there but if thats what it takes to let people know that me and my path exist then its my duty to not shy away from it but im not walking into my old church and say hello baptist church i pray to loki
[15:41] LolaStardust: i actually knew a gal who said she was a Pagan Christian...
[15:41] MadHouseWitch: BUT your religion might have tenants from BOTH paths
[15:41] Cassandee Meter: I lso have wondered at that, like I know people who are christian in their wiccaness, like they prefer the christian triad and such int ehir practie, but they do witchcraft with tem
[15:42] joselle Silvershade: Yes. I have no problem with the connection of Wicca with religion, because that is what it is, using the everyday definition generally understood by most people. Some might say oh, organized religion is bad... but that's again very judgmental and paints a whole ton of organized religions who are doing great things for not only their cities and countries but the world too, with a super broad brush. It isn't right and it isn't fair to those people doing good works to deem them "bad" because they're organized.
[15:42] MadHouseWitch: some may not "get" it but if it works for the practitioner themselves
[15:42] Cassandee Meter: right
[15:42] firefly Bluebird: and many wiccans had to be christian or atleast make it seem as they was, becuase it protected them and their loved ones
[15:42] joselle Silvershade: As far as practicing two religions -- if it works for that person, that's great.
person, that's great.
[15:43] Neelam Hienrichs: Cassandee, I can tell you that was quite popular among witches in some countries much before Wicca ever came to be
[15:43] firefly Bluebird: im glad its not as bad now adays but it was once really bad
[15:43] MadHouseWitch: and that gets to the Wicca vs Witchcraft.... you get some "other religion Witches"
[15:43] joselle Silvershade: When I was first beginning, before I knew what Wicca was, I worshipped Mary the Mother of God. I felt a closer relationship to her when I was Catholic than I did to Jesus or God.
[15:43] ℳʘʘℕ: nods
[15:43] MadHouseWitch: but then there is that "it is what OTHERS call them" thing sometimes
[15:43] firefly Bluebird: that would make so much sense joselle
[15:44] Cassandee Meter: yes, right
[15:44] firefly Bluebird: i felt the same
[15:44] MadHouseWitch: there are MANY other there that do Joselle
that do Joselle
[15:44] Neelam Hienrichs: I come from a Catholic background as well and I like the Virgin Mary
[15:44] firefly Bluebird: now look at me im here with amazing people trying to help fix issues in our community and wiccan woot
[15:44] joselle Silvershade: Firefly that's GREAT! :)
[15:45] Cassandee Meter: in the history of humans therrre have been many cases of religiouns superimposing the new over the old as it was recognized as "r that is just the same god, differnt name" thing
[15:45] firefly Bluebird: :)
[15:45] joselle Silvershade: Cassandee yes, for example in Egypt the Goddesses and Gods morphed quite a lot over time.
[15:45] Neelam Hienrichs: being a Wiccan made me make peace with my background
[15:45] ℳʘʘℕ: well it seems that people that have a physical building to meet is easier considered a religion, but those of us that prefers to call circle among standing stones in our back yard is scarey and misunderstood, how can we change that way of thinking
[15:46] MadHouseWitch: That is an excellent question Moon.
[15:46] LolaStardust: Neelam, The Virgin Mary to me is just another one of the Goddesses...IMO
[15:46] Neelam Hienrichs: because so many things were taught to me in a wrong way as part of an "education" more than religious
[15:46] joselle Silvershade: Moon, the way I explain it to others is, the Earth is my church.
[15:46] MadHouseWitch: and there we have an answer! (among many)
[15:46] Belladonna Laveau: IMO those laws were made to discriminate against pagan faiths.
[15:46] Neelam Hienrichs: I think that you can call yourself religious when you feel it, not because you have to
[15:46] ℳʘʘℕ: yes i have that in my profile
[15:47] Cassandee Meter: i have used tht framing of I go to church in the woods, or at the beach" while I was raising my kids, it actually did seem to resonate with a large number of the people I expressed it that way to
[15:47] joselle Silvershade: The very ground I walk upon, plant my seeds in, hug the trees growing up from, is sacred.
[15:47] firefly Bluebird: i agree bella
[15:47] MadHouseWitch: I sort of love that as Wiccans we get many answers to the same question (even if sometimes it is infuriating)
[15:47] firefly Bluebird: you know the one thing tho
[15:47] joselle Silvershade: I think it's that way for so many other religions too, though.
[15:47] - Laura -: I think all religion is fine, As long as it doesnt cause any suffering to anyone, Or anything.
[15:47] LolaStardust: there is a great poem by Emily Dickinson about how her garden is her church...
[15:47] Neelam Hienrichs: the Virgin Mary always takes out of troubles, so I won't be an ungrateful one to Her LOL
[15:47] joselle Silvershade: Lola oh?
[15:47] LolaStardust: i cant remember the name of it but its amazing
[15:48] LolaStardust: (will have to look it up in my Emily Dickinson poetry book)
[15:48] joselle Silvershade: Bella I agree that laws have been made to stack the cards against us, as it were
[15:48] ℳʘʘℕ: Nature is my church.....There's sunshine in the heart of me,
My blood sings in the breeze;
The mountains are a part of me,
I'm fellow to the trees.
~Robert W. Service (1874–1958)
[15:48] MadHouseWitch: Any closing thoughts about WIcca vs Witchcraft before we finish up here?
[15:49] Neelam Hienrichs: what I like in Wicca is also its inherent modernity
[15:49] firefly Bluebird: as a witch with out direction i hated christianity because of what woke me up and how the womens role was mostly portrayed to me but as a wiccan now i see that the time of was it aquariaus or pisces had people flocking to jesus but now the goddess is coming back to the for front and we are starting to wake up and grow like the grain on the feilds of wheat
[15:49] Neelam Hienrichs: I see Wicca as a modern religion
[15:49] MadHouseWitch: Wicca's origins could be a whole discussion to
[15:49] MadHouseWitch: *too
[15:49] firefly Bluebird: its nice to not have any malice towards my old life
[15:50] Neelam Hienrichs: firefly, I agree with you
[15:50] MadHouseWitch whispers: Some questions I asked but I'm going to post some more here just to answer as you see fit
[15:50] Neelam Hienrichs: being at peace
[15:50] MadHouseWitch: 1. How do you define Wicca?
2. What role do you play within Wicca?
3. What are your practices that are Wiccan in nature?
4. What value does Wicca offer to you?
5. What value does Wicca offer the world?
**Next, if these apply answer these:
For Leadership/State of the Union
2. What role do you play within Wicca?
6. What is your community like?
7. What is its origins?
8. What is it legal status?
If you didn't answer some of those PLEASE do so now
[15:51] Belladonna Laveau: if you could answer them for the record that would be really nice, we want to know who is behind your opinions.
[15:51] Belladonna Laveau: you don't have to include your name if you do n't want to
[15:51] joselle Silvershade: As a final thought or two I want to say that I hope these discussions and this intercooperation among the different Traditions can keep going for as long as possible, and that we together can make so much change happen. It doesn't end on September 10th, or on November 7th which is the last day of the Parliament of World's Religions.
[15:51] Breezy Hanging Silks - Long: Restricted to owner only!
[15:51] MadHouseWitch: ☽♀☾So Mote It Be☽♂☾
[15:51] Cassandee Meter: If the word witch could possibly not be taken as a pejorative thing in our country I would think that would go a long way to making the world a better balance
[15:51] Neelam Hienrichs: So mote it be!
[15:52] ℳʘʘℕ: ☽☉☾Տʘ /\/\ʘϮ∈ iϮ ß∈☽☉☾
[15:52] SilverMoonWisdom: ☽☉☾Տʘ /\/\ʘϮ∈ iϮ ß∈☽☉☾
[15:52] Iduna: so mote it be
[15:52] Sagan Skye: So mote it be
[15:52] - Laura -: So mote it be.
[15:52] Cassandee Meter: Wicca as a practice offers the world a healthier perspective for the entire fabric of life.
[15:52] Roz: so mote it be
[15:52] MadHouseWitch: I'd like to thank you all for joining in today, and please join me in blessing the cauldron of prosperity before we depart
[15:52] joselle Silvershade: For the record my name is Elizabeth Hamilton and I am a High Priestess within the Correllian Nativist Tradition of Wicca, also known as the Correllian-Nativist Church. :) So mote it be, and I am honored to work with the ATC and everyone else to make our Mother a better place.
[15:52] MadHouseWitch: "Please share your energy once more in blessing the Cauldron of Prosperity. Let our hearts flow with generosity. As you give, so shall ye receive! Threefold, sevenfold, ninefold, more - May you have many blessings in store!" draws an Earth invoking pentagram over the cauldron... "SO MOTE IT BE!"
[15:53] Neelam Hienrichs: Wicca as a path offer a way of thinking out of the box and not simply jumping from a label to another label
[15:53] Belladonna Laveau: so mote it be
[15:53] SilverMoonWisdom: ☽☉☾Տʘ /\/\ʘϮ∈ iϮ ß∈☽☉
Thank you all. Teamwork makes the dream work :)
[15:57] firefly Bluebird: 1.wicca is my path in life that i chose to follow so that i feel like i am doing my part to make life better for those that come after me, 3. well im growing a sunflower, i try to allow myself to commune when i can with it, and i try to attune my life to my to what is more natural even if i many fail alot. 2. im a worker ant that is learning i have the ability to fly above the sky. 4. the value of my self as well as forgiveness for those who tried to make me into what i am not. 5. as a whole wicca seeks to fix the unbalance in nature that we have done in its absence and teach that together we can and have the ability to be stewards of the land and that we are more than what we think of ourselves. we are divine creatures that are just as much apart of the world as the rest of the creatures in it.
[15:57] firefly Bluebird: sorry that took me alittle to type lols and thanks for this
[15:58] Neelam Hienrichs: thank you for sharing, firefly :-)
[15:58] firefly Bluebird: :)